Curse

StormDragonZ · Nov 14, 2010, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Is it bad that I like the PvP version of Barbed Signet better than what it does in PvE?

Ensign · Nov 14, 2010, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

The reason why I dont like it is because im afraid that the practice of nerfing/buffing skills in one format because of issues in the other format is a slippery slope.

The practice of nerfing/buffing skills in all formats due to best use in a particular format was the way things were done for years, and doing away with the practice is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE.

The only slippery slope you need to worry about is a slippery slope to sanity in PvE, presuming you prefer the present insanity. If A.Net keeps this up, PvE might accidentally become balanced again, the horrors!

Elnino · Nov 14, 2010, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The practice of nerfing/buffing skills in all formats due to best use in a particular format was the way things were done for years, and doing away with the practice is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE.

The only slippery slope you need to worry about is a slippery slope to sanity in PvE, presuming you prefer the present insanity. If A.Net keeps this up, PvE might accidentally become balanced again, the horrors!

I'm confused. Didn't you say the current practice "is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE?"
If Anet keeps this current practice up, how will PvE accidentally become balanced again, if they keep the practice that created the imbalance?

Apok · Nov 14, 2010, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Ensign, could you do everyone a favor and pleasantly give us your thoughts on this update?

Thanks in advance.

Still Number One · Nov 14, 2010, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

I'm confused. Didn't you say the current practice "is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE?"
If Anet keeps this current practice up, how will PvE accidentally become balanced again, if they keep the practice that created the imbalance?

I think he is saying the PvE/PvP splits is what imbalanced PvE because PvP wasn't keeping it in check. If they continue to not split the two PvE will become balanced again. Could be wrong on my interpretation though.

Elnino · Nov 14, 2010, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I think he is saying the PvE/PvP splits is what imbalanced PvE because PvP wasn't keeping it in check. If they continue to not split the two PvE will become balanced again. Could be wrong on my interpretation though.

That's what I thought he could be saying, but the wording sounded like if they kept doing pve/pvp split that pve would become balanced.

drkn · Nov 14, 2010, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

The practice of nerfing/buffing skills in all formats due to best use in a particular format was the way things were done for years, and doing away with the practice is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE.

So... if there were no splits, there would be no broken skills in PvE?
Twisted logic, sir, if it's logic at all. SF could be split to work somehow useful in PvP, while not being terribly broken in PvE. Why not?
Also the fact that ANet did it for that long doesn't sanctify it.

The main cause why splits are necessary is that the game is imbalanced in its very core. In two ways. First off, PvE and PvP are drastically different now. They require different approach, gameplay, the mechanics are really far from being similar. Thus, they also require different skills (or, usually, different versions of skills - more/less powerful XYZ, or working completely differently, for A format than it's in B does the trick). Secondly, the duo-class mechanics is broken by design. Although fun and useful, especially in PvE, it makes the ultimate balancing virtually impossible. Splitting skills for completely different formats helps to keep some level of balance for that format, while not buffing/nerfing the other one - each format should be carefully balanced on its own.
Another way of achieving balance is to delete most of the skills from the game (or just from the players' skill pool). The ones that are useless, broken, blatantly overpowered. Then, if, say, a class has 3 skills left, add new ones or bring back some of the old ones, but in more balanced way. It would bring us closer to what GW2 is going to be.
Or the duo-class mechanics could be touched. Limit secondary-class' attributes to max 6 and limit the build to include max 2 non-primairy skills, with elite from your primairy. It still wouldn't kill SF, 100b/MoP and other terribad crap, but would make subsequent balancing much easier and more real without breaking other aspects of the game.

e: typos.

Bassma · Nov 14, 2010, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Nice update Anet if this many people are unhappy with it then you've done your job well. Don't worry they'll learn to live with it just like the others.

Xenomortis · Nov 14, 2010, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The practice of nerfing/buffing skills in all formats due to best use in a particular format was the way things were done for years, and doing away with the practice is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE.

It's a shame A.Net seemed to think that this was a good development.

With the direction PvE was taking in NF and EotN, a PvE/PvP skill-split would have been in order, but more care was needed instead of the "ok, we can buff shit like crazy now" attitude that was taken.
It also finished driving a wedge between PvP and PvE, but that was a process that had begun much earlier.

superraptors · Nov 14, 2010, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

Sad by seeing Coward! take a hit. Recently became my favourite low-end pvp playtoy, it's not too bad of a nerf but it makes the job A LOT more difficult to keep someone knock-locked since by the time the skill becomes active, the enemy is already beginning to run and denies us the short adrenaline build-up moment.

thats the reason why it got nerfed, it pretty much made the target getting attacked stand still and tank it, it should have been tied to strength once again, sins abused it not warriors, double strikes made on 100% recharge all the time, with nearinstant activation skills you can keep a target standing still most of the time

assassins ruined the game when it was released, cookie cutter sp sin, shadow of haste, shadow steps, backbreaker, near,instant activation skills now, shadowmelding in hb, abusing other classes coward bb, a/p spikers- how does a assasin play a better spear chucker then a paragon?, being abused by other clases - r/a now warrior bbs PVE - everyone runs sf terras pretty much killed balanced pugs, could probably name a few more but not the least bit surprised

Coast · Nov 14, 2010, 12:05 PM // 12:05

they could have buffed divine boon back to what it used to be!([email protected]) and reduce recharge(+maybe e cost to 1e)
Still would be worse as rc prot wich has massive armor and stances

TheRanger · Nov 14, 2010, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Healing Burst is amazing. PvE Monk with UA and another with Healing Burst = amazing.

kupp · Nov 14, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Wow, all teleports have a huge aftercast delay. Also, blind, S.Bash, Bonetti's, Disciplined, F*** IT! Lame your way with him and just B.Surge/B.Flash his ass! How the f*** can you possibly have a problem with assassins when you have all the above at your disposal?! You, dear sir, are just not doing it right!

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/W_Assault_Assassin
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/W_...ck_Palm_Spiker

Argue this. Just an example. And don't talk to me like I'm breaking news to anyone when everyone knows how sins are a zero-skilled button mashing that nearly instagibs players and god forbid that if you don't have the one specific skill to break it, you're dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix Infelicium

Either you're trolling or you're oblivious to the fact that knock lock is a silly and imbalanced mechanic in a game like GW.

You mean much like disabling, blind spam, hammer builds and whatever else that prevents/prohibits from doing something? Cry me a river, 5 years later is when you start having a problem with it, or was it until assassins mainly moved in and started abusing the shit out of warrior kd chains? Because on a warrior at least, it's never been silly and imbalanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

thats the reason why it got nerfed, it pretty much made the target getting attacked stand still and tank it, it should have been tied to strength once again, sins abused it not warriors, double strikes made on 100% recharge all the time, with nearinstant activation skills you can keep a target standing still most of the time

assassins ruined the game when it was released, cookie cutter sp sin, shadow of haste, shadow steps, backbreaker, near,instant activation skills now, shadowmelding in hb, abusing other classes coward bb, a/p spikers- how does a assasin play a better spear chucker then a paragon?, being abused by other clases - r/a now warrior bbs PVE - everyone runs sf terras pretty much killed balanced pugs, could probably name a few more but not the least bit surprised

Absolutely agree. Cuddos for Anet for taking the warrior as a collateral casualty, now Coward, as an elite, is pretty redundant. It works, but is it really worth taking instead of other stuff? I find the staple elites a lot more useful on my bar.

Warriors never abused it in the first place and for the love of god, if that's annoying on anyone else and reason to be nerfed, then remove Blinding Surge from the game all together because that's a lot more gamebreaking than the ocasional KD the warrior has to work for, cannot spam on recharge and that does not effectively remove whatever physical professions within range from the match.

Artisan Archer · Nov 14, 2010, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

Warriors never abused it in the first place and for the love of god, if that's annoying on anyone else and reason to be nerfed, then remove Blinding Surge from the game all together because that's a lot more gamebreaking than the ocasional KD the warrior has to work for, cannot spam on recharge and that does not effectively remove whatever physical professions within range from the match.

Draw Conditions.

kupp · Nov 14, 2010, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan Archer

Draw Conditions.

3s recharge.
Blind spammed faster than it can be removed.
No monk dedicated on me alone.
If any monk available.
Utopia.
etc.

It's easy making witty 2-word sentences, not so much explaining why they completely fail.

Artisan Archer · Nov 14, 2010, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

3s recharge.
Blind spammed faster than it can be removed.
No monk dedicated on me alone.
If any monk available.
Utopia.
etc.

It's easy making witty 2-word sentences, not so much explaining why they completely fail.

Are you kidding me? If you don't see that draw conditions > blind I'll just stop here. Also, guild wars shouldn't be balanced around RA.

kupp · Nov 14, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan Archer

Are you kidding me? If you don't see that draw conditions > blind I'll just stop here. Also, guild wars shouldn't be balanced around RA.

And if you don't realize that it doesn't matter, I might as well stop as here as well. Because if you're really saying that if you'd have the ele spaming BS every 3 seconds and the monk removing it every 2, and they're both doing nothing more than pressing 1 for the whole match chasing each other around in a nice circlejerk, THAT makes it ok for BS to be spamed, than that notion is absolutely retarded. Because of one extreme situation that doesn't happen where BS can be overcome, the skill is balanced and fair? Please...... Roll a melee character and come back to talk to me.

Also, guild wars should be balanced around pvp. Never liked that notion that only HA/GvG (and has of late, only GvG by looking at some idiotic forum posts) is considered pvp.

IrishX · Nov 14, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

3s recharge.
Blind spammed faster than it can be removed.
No monk dedicated on me alone.
If any monk available.
Utopia.
etc.

It's easy making witty 2-word sentences, not so much explaining why they completely fail.

Excuse me, but what? BSurge and BFlash already received (largely) unneeded recharge nerfs, and every team has at least two deep condi removals at the moment. Not that a poorly used BSurge/flash is even useful at all with all the passive blind reduction available to warriors.

And if you're worried about RA, the game is not, and should not, be balanced around (random) 4v4. If you're really bad enough that you can't shock/dchop/dblow/kd a BSurge when you are not blind, run Sight Beyond Sight.

Lanier · Nov 14, 2010, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The practice of nerfing/buffing skills in all formats due to best use in a particular format was the way things were done for years, and doing away with the practice is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE.

The only slippery slope you need to worry about is a slippery slope to sanity in PvE, presuming you prefer the present insanity. If A.Net keeps this up, PvE might accidentally become balanced again, the horrors!

Actually, I agree with you. I would much prefer things be like they were back before splits - before SF was rediculously powerful, before ER was maintainable, before spirits were overpowered. The fact of the matter is though, that isnt going to happen. Power creep has come and come and come, and I dont forsee it being completely reversed to the state of pre-split PvE. While I would rather there not be any splits in the first place, if anet is going to use splits, then I would rather them go ahead and split all of the skills they nerf/buff where and when the change isn't needed in the other format.

Morphy · Nov 14, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Wow, all teleports have a huge aftercast delay. Also, blind, S.Bash, Bonetti's, Disciplined, F*** IT! Lame your way with him and just B.Surge/B.Flash his ass! How the f*** can you possibly have a problem with assassins when you have all the above at your disposal?! You, dear sir, are just not doing it right!

Warriors have to deal with the same counters, so that's pretty irrelevant.

Why don't you do us all a favor by going back to my JS/FF thread and read what the actual problem with these skills is.